I have seen a copy of Cocksucker Blues and while the backstage stuff is much more dull & depressing than the evil decadence of legend, the onstage performances are some of the most dynamic rock'n'roll I've ever heard/seen.

There is also a video that circulates of the Stones at the Marquee Club in 1971. Jagger wears one of the most ridiculous glam outfits of his career, but again the performances kick all sorts of ass.

The Stones' choices of what to release on film has always struck me as perverse - they've released some of the dullest concert films ever, from some of the most exciting rock tours in history.

The Stones' choices of what to release on film has always struck me as perverse - they've released some of the dullest concert films ever, from some of the most exciting rock tours in history.

Well, both Cocksucker Blues and Ladies and Gentlemen strike me as sincere but failed attempts to capture the '72 US tour. The performances in Cocksucker are better filmed than those in Ladies and Gentlemen, I think, but they are mostly truncated excerpts. A great mystery is: where is the rest of THAT footage? Unlike the "backstage" and roadie/groupie footage, the footage of the performances in Cocksucker is shot with multiple cameras (that aren't broken) and good angles.

Ladies and Gentlemen has always seemed to me to be a very safely played and relatively cuddly performance. The Philadelphia and MSG shows that end the tour, especially, blow those Texas shows away in terms of their energy. Cocksucker seems to capture more of that but to see it you've got to sit through the milky cesspool of the Stones "lifestyle" and that of their entourage (including the filmmakers).

Lastly, I'm certain that parts of Ladies and Gentlemen are overdubbed (e.g., Keith's vocals at least) whereas I'm fairly certain that Cocksucker is the real deal. That's another reason Ladies comes off as a bit too polished and you can blame Jagger for that (Sir Mick's anal retentiveness and misplaced self-consciousnes is also responsible for the studio redubbing that castrated Get Yr Yas Yas Out).

Sir Mick's anal retentiveness and misplaced self-consciousnes is also responsible for the studio redubbing that castrated Get Yr Yas Yas Out).

I consider myself a fairly knowledgeable Stones fan, and I love Ya-Yas. This is the first time I've ever heard it even suggested that it was redubbed, let alone that said dubbing in some way spoiled it.

And I have a bootleg of the Madison Square Garden show from the 72 tour. I love it, but it's only marginally better than the performances in LAGTRS. Hardly enough to dismiss the latter as safe and cuddly.

IMHO.

I saw them on that tour, at Boston Garden ... that was my first Stones show. Aside from seeing the Beatles at Shea, that was the largest music venue I had ever been to. I can't say I enjoyed it ... it felt crazy and confrontational, and yet distant.

Aside from the Scorsese, the only other Stones filmed performance I've seen is "Gimme Shelter". Which, in a way, could not have happened to any other band ... as you said, they were "a great, unpredictable (and thus dangerous) roadhouse rock crew" ...

But once a band loses physical intimacy with its audience, I can see how easy it would be to become somewhat disconnected from the musical performances, too. Especially after the novelty wears off.

A great clip and ensemble work to die for, but Mick's dancing and faux-blues shouting just don't work for me, to the point of nearly ruining the song at times. Maybe it's just a Who-Stones thing (the former my candidate for GRnRBITW), but I'm having a hard time finding Stones Enlightenment on this evidence, O Wise One! Help me.

I consider myself a fairly knowledgeable Stones fan, and I love Ya-Yas. This is the first time I've ever heard it even suggested that it was redubbed, let alone that said dubbing in some way spoiled it.

steve, get yourself over to my favorite Rolling Stones website on the internet:

http://www.rollingstonesnet.com/yaya.htm

It evolves slowly but the information there about the Ya Yas, Liver Than You'll Ever Be, and Welcome to New York albums is priceless.

As for dubbing spoiling ya ya's, that's just my personal opinion, but it's not *just* the dubbing. It's just not a "balls to the wall" show. Altamont was balls to the wall. The footage from the Stones at MSG in Gimme Shelter is hotter than Ya Yas. And Liver Than You'll Ever Be has "I'm Free" which is better than anything on Ya Yas, plus it's a "straight" recording of the Stones show, as it was heard in oakland on that magical night. The "concert" you hear in Ya Yas never actually happened.

The "concert" you hear in Ya Yas never actually happened.

I agree with you about the Altamont show -- the "Under My Thumb" is beyond intense -- but I was at the Garden in 1969 and Ya-Yas sounds exactly like what I heard that night. And it did from the moment I first listened to it in '70.

I'll check the site, though.

Maybeit's just a Who-Stones thing (the former my candidate for GRnRBITW), but I'm having a hard time finding Stones Enlightenment on this evidence, O Wise One! Help me.

Try this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwqUVONSEhw&feature=related

I believe this footage originally aired on the Cavett show along with Brown Sugar and some fantastic backstage interviews with Jagger and Wyman. It's hotter than the versions in Ladies and Gentleman and Cocksuckers and the mix on the guitars is fantastic.

I was at the Garden in 1969 and Ya-Yas sounds exactly like what I heard that night.

That's good to know. If/when we meet personally, I will want to touch you.

Stunt Woman:

Posted this earlier, but apparently Moveable Type is eating my comments.

Short version: If you're the Stones maven I think you are, do you have a clue where I can get a copy of the Bob Clearmountain single remix of "Before They Make Me Run," released I think only as a promo to the press in the late 70s.

I had it on vinyl back in the day, unless I'm dreaming, but otherwise it seems to have disappeared into the ether. I actually e-mailed Clearmountain about it last year, and he confessed he had no memory of ever doing it.

It's vastly superior to the album version, and I would (almost) kill to get it.

Short version: If you're the Stones maven I think you are, do you have a clue where I can get a copy of the Bob Clearmountain single remix of "Before They Make Me Run," released I think only as a promo to the press in the late 70s.

steve, I am sorry to disappoint but I have no clue. I would be shocked if isn't on the internets somewhere, but finding sound files on the internets can be a bitch (at least for me).

Stunt Woman:

Thanks anyway.

BTW -- I looked at the site you recommended. As I suspected, the "dubbing" on Ya-Yas the guy was talking about bothers me not a whit. Editing crowd noises or a spoken intro from a different version of a song onto a different take? Big deal. Ditto fixing a vocal. The spirit of the thing remains intact....

Steve:

I have the "Before They Make Me Run" remix 45 single. You gave it to me thirty years ago for some wonderful reason. Whenever I get my brother's digital converting turntable I'll burn a copy for you.